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it

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me

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Oh

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you

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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show number 55 for the sixth of November

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2009 Richard Saunders here with you once

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again from Sydney Australia we're going

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to kick off today's show with part two

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of dr. Reggie reports her interview with

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John Rennie the recent editor of

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Scientific American magazine after that

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we have a short report I am made at

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Sydney skeptics in the pub where I chat

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to an old friend of mine William broom

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now some of you may know William room he

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does reports for the bad psychics

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website in the UK following that we have

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our voiceover man Jim wilshire telling

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us about the min min man lovely little

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poem I think you'll like it and then

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we've got a real blast from the past a

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lecture given a short make sure given in

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1988 at the Australian skeptics

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convention all about the new age yes 21

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years ago have a listen and you'll hear

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what the skeptics back then were

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thinking about the new age to round off

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the show we have a short report on the

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Melbourne Cup the biggest horse race in

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Australia where skeptic zone member

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amanda rose and i have a lovely day and

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bet on some horses do we win do we win

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listen to the end of the show and find

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out all right that's enough from me

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let's get on with this week's episode of

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now it's time for dr. Rachel reports

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with dr. Rachel Dunlop follow listeners

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and welcome to dr. 80 reports this week

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I continued my interview with John

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Rennie the most recent editor-in-chief

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of Scientific American magazine today we

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continue our discussions and delve into

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the role of the media in the public

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understanding of science I started off

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by asking John about the general science

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education level in America and how

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scientific american played a role in

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educating the public so can we talk

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about that then can we talk about the

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public perception of science and also

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the public sort of you know literacy and

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I know in particular in the United

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States it's a very big problem in terms

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of scientific literacy I think there

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were some surveys done about you know

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does the Sun go round there for the

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other way in yeah I have to say you know

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that in the answers of course does

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everybody knows you know the resulting

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those are absolutely appalling they're

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so appalling that I have to admit I'm

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always a little bit skeptical of what

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they actually are I mean I life granted

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I should probably to settle the question

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my own mind really look at the surveys

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more closely but I always have this

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nagging feeling that something is going

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on that that people like don't

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understand the question the way that it

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was phrased to be good and I just say it

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basically saying a paper copy that's

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cheap of John right I guess I think

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that's actually it I think I don't want

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to think that that at least so many

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Americans are so stupid they live in

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today that they don't get the idea that

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the earth goes around the Sun I mean I

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that it that that is the kind of thing

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that if that actually represents

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something that people don't know or

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don't don't accept then I mean honestly

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a lot of other issues about scientific

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illiteracy you just sort of should throw

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in the towel because this you know that

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it's like where if you can't get that

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through to them quantum theory what you

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know evolution come on it's you're just

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at that point you almost have to just

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accept that you're just going to ask

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people to please don't get in the way

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education for some of the other people

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just sort of on that on that similar

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theme you and I were on a panel a couple

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of days ago at the northeast and science

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and skepticism conference in new york

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city and our panel was about science and

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me and the media obviously you've played

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a major role in conveying scientific

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information to the public but who do you

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think is at fault here i mean do you

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think that that the media needs to take

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more responsibility for educating the

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public about science yeah it's joy media

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it's I mean this is this is and I think

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this was something that could come out

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of our panel discussions the other day

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is that that I think there there's

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probably no shortage of blame that can

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be thrown around to virtually everyone

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connected with it that is it's very easy

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to point fingers obviously at the

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schools we should be turning out people

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who are better educated about science

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it's easy to point it at the scientists

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that sometimes they themselves should be

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you know commuting either being more

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willing to communicate or communicate

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better you know you you but I think

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certainly obviously a portion of this

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definitely goes the way of the media and

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and I think that that there are there

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are real kinds of of fault the dual I

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with the media that have even if root

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causes us a scientific misunderstanding

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or ignorance are rooted elsewhere that

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they're very badly compounded from time

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to time no and I think what also he's

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very frustrating you know I this was a

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point that Howard Schneider from Stony

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Brook University who's a well-decorated

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journals that he was making sort of

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standing up in defense of the profession

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is that he made the point that actually

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notwithstanding sort of that it's it's

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very easy for a lot of us say oh the

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stupid media look they managed to botch

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these things again even on things like

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where they talk about the sort of be the

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false balance issues of look every time

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they run an article about evolution or

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controversy surrounding evolution they

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always manage to get that dopey

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creationist viewpoint tucked in at the

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end too you know I think he makes a

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point that really almost if you look

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through

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piece by piece article by article a lot

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of them really actually hold up quite

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well at least when you're talking about

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sort of the the cream of the media the

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the New York Times and sort of other

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other better newspapers or some the rest

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of those I think what's what makes it

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sort of a confounding Lee difficult

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problem to address is that sometimes

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item-by-item things are perfectly good

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or perfectly reasonable and yet it seems

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as though the body of work consisting of

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all those different individual items

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somehow has some larger problem maybe

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it's just the fact that even if say

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bringing in statements from global

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warming deniers deep down and

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appropriately contextualized inside an

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article about climate change even though

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that's happened and it seems by rights

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that that's a journalistic Lee

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appropriate thing to do maybe in just

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that happening again and again and again

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helps to keep alive that point of view

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in certain people's minds it is tricky

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though because because and I and I say

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this as somebody who has certainly made

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the argument that I think that a lot of

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science journalists on certain issues

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should not worry too much about being

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perceived as as advocates you know I

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think that that you know my maybe overly

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simplistic view of these things is my

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job as a science journalist is to try to

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educate people about what I understand

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to be true and meaningful about things

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happening in science which means that at

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times I if I know that creationism is is

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not a real scientific point of view I

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feel no particular responsibility in the

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name of fairness to try to bring that in

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I think that there are you know but but

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but this can get very very tricky and

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one of the things that came up in our

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discussion is that a lot of articles or

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stories that appear in the news me know

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television in the radio or whatever else

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they don't always sit squarely within

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the camp of this is an article about the

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science or this is an article about save

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the

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sometimes have a foot in both and

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they're Blair that distinction to that

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night right well and like a yeah well

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and ultimate and the justifications for

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what you would do in each of those cases

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so if I'm writing an article that is

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very straightforwardly about the science

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of evolution there is no reasonable

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point in there for me to be writing

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about creationist points of view on the

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other hand if I'm writing an article

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that is sort of about the the social

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context of evolution even if I want to

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make the point in their analysis

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shouldn't make the point in there that

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obviously evolution is the only

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scientifically validated of perspective

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on this still it would be kind of

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disingenuous of me to not acknowledge

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the fact that certainly here in the

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United States you've got a lot of people

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who are not on board with that yeah and

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that and that it becomes a real issue in

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things like you know textbook standards

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in fact would be really remove me as a

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journalist not to mention that so if I'm

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writing an article that is trying to do

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a bit of both and explain some of the

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science and talk about some of this you

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know people who are looking at that

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story would say a very scientific lens

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may really feel like oh you're mucking

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up the the story of the science on this

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by dragging in those lunatics who

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believe in creation it's not easy and

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you and you do want to be careful about

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telling telling journalists or

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journalism in general given what their

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general mandate is supposed to be that

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there are certain perspectives that you

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should just decide for yourselves you're

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just not going to bother to include you

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know I hate it it's tricky I don't think

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and especially for people who are

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operating under deadlines and lots of

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other things sometimes the wrong calls

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get get made so it's tricky I think you

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make a really good point though there by

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saying that if it's a social analysis of

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the sort of the moon you know the

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situation of hand for example

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creationism or you know my pet interest

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which is the anti boxes right then I see

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no reason why you shouldn't include that

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but where the line gets blurred is when

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the science is presented yes as is kind

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no one and then there's a throw away a

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couple of paragraphs from you know the

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ante backs movement who don't base

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anything on science and so as a member

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of the public I'm probably going to

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confuse those two and there's no reason

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why I wouldn't think that the anti

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baxter phys science as well you know one

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of the things that I mean we talked

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about some of the other kind of the the

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really deeply unfortunate

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misunderstandings within the public and

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maybe in a sense among within the sort

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of the the semi educated public about

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the science and in some ways they're the

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people who are who are most most

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troublesome for all of this because the

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people who are genuinely naive about

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science and not interested in science

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stay out of it the problems are the ones

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who they know just enough science to be

276
00:11:44,890 --> 00:11:42,740
dangerous it is is the problem and comes

277
00:11:48,610 --> 00:11:44,900
up and I really think this is at the

278
00:11:51,910 --> 00:11:48,620
root of other endless sorts of you know

279
00:11:55,630 --> 00:11:51,920
pseudo scientific controversies is the

280
00:11:58,210 --> 00:11:55,640
the the Galileo myth which is that album

281
00:12:00,930 --> 00:11:58,220
of you know that yes the whole

282
00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:00,940
scientific scientific establishment says

283
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:04,730
that the drama but Galileo was Galileo

284
00:12:10,390 --> 00:12:08,450
was right and and that notion that that

285
00:12:14,620 --> 00:12:10,400
is genuinely wrong that it only takes

286
00:12:17,770 --> 00:12:14,630
one experimental result to completely

287
00:12:20,020 --> 00:12:17,780
knock down some huge edifice of a theory

288
00:12:22,030 --> 00:12:20,030
like it's just not true I mean

289
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:22,040
especially not true in practice is all

290
00:12:26,290 --> 00:12:24,050
real working scientists know for told

291
00:12:28,630 --> 00:12:26,300
even in principle it would have to be

292
00:12:30,970 --> 00:12:28,640
one hell of a scientific result to

293
00:12:33,610 --> 00:12:30,980
suddenly actually take down everything

294
00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:33,620
that was there was believed about a well

295
00:12:39,130 --> 00:12:36,110
substantiated theory what would be a

296
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:39,140
result that would take down our you know

297
00:12:43,210 --> 00:12:41,120
the the theory of universal gravitation

298
00:12:44,860 --> 00:12:43,220
what would be the result that we would

299
00:12:48,550 --> 00:12:44,870
have to have them do that you would need

300
00:12:49,870 --> 00:12:48,560
to have an instance of anti-gravity and

301
00:12:52,510 --> 00:12:49,880
it would have to be an instance of

302
00:12:56,140 --> 00:12:52,520
anti-gravity that didn't just leave you

303
00:12:59,140 --> 00:12:56,150
to amend everything else that you had in

304
00:13:00,680 --> 00:12:59,150
science it actually caused you to have

305
00:13:01,850 --> 00:13:00,690
to tear the whole thing down

306
00:13:03,770 --> 00:13:01,860
it would be the kind of thing and said

307
00:13:05,090 --> 00:13:03,780
look we've been fooling ourselves there

308
00:13:06,860 --> 00:13:05,100
aren't atoms at all what were we

309
00:13:10,220 --> 00:13:06,870
thinking there are actually you know

310
00:13:11,810 --> 00:13:10,230
tiny little microscopic frogs I thought

311
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:11,820
they were out of its well this changes

312
00:13:15,980 --> 00:13:14,010
everything yeah but that's that's I

313
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:15,990
think what happens in people that's

314
00:13:24,370 --> 00:13:20,010
what's so loopy about some of the kind

315
00:13:28,850 --> 00:13:24,380
of the would be scientific critics of

316
00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:28,860
evolution or global worming evidence or

317
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:30,870
some of this is that they will point to

318
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:34,650
their pet experiment or their pet body

319
00:13:41,180 --> 00:13:38,610
of work and say well if this is true all

320
00:13:42,710 --> 00:13:41,190
the rest of this must be false but it's

321
00:13:45,170 --> 00:13:42,720
just not the case I mean in physics

322
00:13:48,350 --> 00:13:45,180
which is I mean physics it which is as

323
00:13:50,540 --> 00:13:48,360
as solid and mathematical and rigorous

324
00:13:52,130 --> 00:13:50,550
and substantiated a science really as

325
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:52,140
you as you can find I mean you can

326
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:55,890
literally the predictions come out of

327
00:14:00,740 --> 00:13:58,320
different models that can be tested to

328
00:14:05,690 --> 00:14:00,750
umpteen different decimal points of

329
00:14:07,970 --> 00:14:05,700
accuracy leaving within those people

330
00:14:10,340 --> 00:14:07,980
come up with with sort of anomalous

331
00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:10,350
results all the cut all the time people

332
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:11,910
come up with things like that's weird

333
00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:13,650
that doesn't seem like right we would

334
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:14,790
have figured that should have been a

335
00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:17,250
little bit different but it doesn't mean

336
00:14:22,340 --> 00:14:19,710
that everybody says well tear up your

337
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:22,350
relativity papers a throw up quantum

338
00:14:26,810 --> 00:14:25,170
theory because it's much more likely in

339
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:26,820
a lot of those cases that your anomalous

340
00:14:32,060 --> 00:14:30,330
result is wrong or 50 first of all or if

341
00:14:34,670 --> 00:14:32,070
it's packaged actually turns out to be

342
00:14:36,590 --> 00:14:34,680
true it is probably validated by

343
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:36,600
something that is you know a minor

344
00:14:41,390 --> 00:14:38,730
codicil that you make to the rest of it

345
00:14:42,770 --> 00:14:41,400
I mean a good example is and this is

346
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:42,780
like perfect example of an anomalous

347
00:14:49,790 --> 00:14:47,040
thing as the it's been noticed that some

348
00:14:51,380 --> 00:14:49,800
of the deep-space probes that we've been

349
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:51,390
sending out you know far other the

350
00:14:56,980 --> 00:14:53,130
they're on a trajectory out of the solar

351
00:15:00,920 --> 00:14:56,990
system it's been noticed that they are

352
00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:00,930
moving I think a little bit slower than

353
00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:03,360
they're supposed to be it's strange it's

354
00:15:07,530 --> 00:15:06,510
like you know all all of what we know

355
00:15:08,370 --> 00:15:07,540
about

356
00:15:10,050 --> 00:15:08,380
you know sort of the standard

357
00:15:11,430 --> 00:15:10,060
gravitational calculations and our

358
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:11,440
understanding of the bodies that are out

359
00:15:15,509 --> 00:15:13,930
there would suggest these things should

360
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:15,519
be moving a little bit faster at this

361
00:15:18,269 --> 00:15:16,690
point than they are and it keeps

362
00:15:21,540 --> 00:15:18,279
happening over and over again with these

363
00:15:24,540 --> 00:15:21,550
different probes so on the face of it

364
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:24,550
that's something that's a result that

365
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:27,910
can seriously knock down some of what

366
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:30,250
you would understand about about gravity

367
00:15:36,569 --> 00:15:33,970
gravity going back to Newton but you

368
00:15:38,430 --> 00:15:36,579
know whatever the result of that is okay

369
00:15:40,499 --> 00:15:38,440
it's probably the fact that it's been

370
00:15:41,970 --> 00:15:40,509
observed independently enough over and

371
00:15:44,069 --> 00:15:41,980
over against Joseph's probably it's not

372
00:15:45,540 --> 00:15:44,079
just a mistake it's not just a

373
00:15:46,829 --> 00:15:45,550
measurement error although I think there

374
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:46,839
are some people who argue even that

375
00:15:51,509 --> 00:15:48,850
can't necessarily be ruled out

376
00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:51,519
completely but it's also very likely

377
00:15:55,949 --> 00:15:53,440
that okay there are other gravitational

378
00:15:58,920 --> 00:15:55,959
masses that maybe in the solar system

379
00:16:01,019 --> 00:15:58,930
that people aren't accounting for likely

380
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:01,029
and that might be something but you know

381
00:16:04,559 --> 00:16:03,130
the most far-out answer is that well

382
00:16:06,090 --> 00:16:04,569
you're actually looking at something

383
00:16:08,249 --> 00:16:06,100
that says that when you're talking about

384
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:08,259
you know that's that sort of

385
00:16:14,519 --> 00:16:11,199
astronomical kind of distance that maybe

386
00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:14,529
some they know there are extra terms

387
00:16:18,509 --> 00:16:16,630
that need to be added to the relatively

388
00:16:21,689 --> 00:16:18,519
straightforward gravitational

389
00:16:24,439 --> 00:16:21,699
calculations but even that doesn't knock

390
00:16:27,689 --> 00:16:24,449
down Newton's theory of gravity yeah

391
00:16:30,449 --> 00:16:27,699
general relativity did not dot knock

392
00:16:32,460 --> 00:16:30,459
down Newton's there is a gravity it just

393
00:16:34,050 --> 00:16:32,470
amended them and showed that under

394
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:34,060
certain circumstances you yuge you

395
00:16:38,519 --> 00:16:36,850
needed to calculate them differently in

396
00:16:40,650 --> 00:16:38,529
quantum theory you know that's the

397
00:16:43,470 --> 00:16:40,660
fascinating is that too hasn't managed

398
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:43,480
to negate relativity theory the

399
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:46,000
fascinating thing is that both of those

400
00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:49,810
are clearly robustly very very true even

401
00:16:56,460 --> 00:16:52,649
though they operate on what are

402
00:16:58,019 --> 00:16:56,470
fundamentally irreconcilable sets of

403
00:17:00,629 --> 00:16:58,029
fundamental principles about kind of how

404
00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:00,639
the universe is put together and so the

405
00:17:03,929 --> 00:17:02,649
great search is to try to figure out how

406
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:03,939
do you make those two things come

407
00:17:07,049 --> 00:17:05,530
together in some way but that's just

408
00:17:09,329 --> 00:17:07,059
fascinating as part of what's exciting

409
00:17:11,399 --> 00:17:09,339
about Sciences is not having answers

410
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:11,409
like that yeah but that's your opinion

411
00:17:14,699 --> 00:17:13,120
John I mean they're the public might say

412
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:14,709
to you will but scientists keep changing

413
00:17:18,010 --> 00:17:16,250
their mind all the time right now

414
00:17:19,870 --> 00:17:18,020
and this is one of the big problems that

415
00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:19,880
I think the media contributes to you as

416
00:17:24,420 --> 00:17:22,579
well where as you mentioned before you

417
00:17:26,829 --> 00:17:24,430
know journalists have deadlines they

418
00:17:29,050 --> 00:17:26,839
some of them are not necessarily trained

419
00:17:30,580 --> 00:17:29,060
a science journalist either right and so

420
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:30,590
they might pick up an abstract from a

421
00:17:35,380 --> 00:17:33,770
paper and and as you would well no

422
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:35,390
abstracts often not very representative

423
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:37,250
of what is in the rest of the paper

424
00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:39,440
right right and so one we can't you know

425
00:17:43,660 --> 00:17:41,270
cancers caused by coffee in the next

426
00:17:46,540 --> 00:17:43,670
week you know coffee cures cancer right

427
00:17:48,460 --> 00:17:46,550
well I mean some of that and forgive me

428
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:48,470
if I if I jump up on what's a lot of

429
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:50,330
like a little a little hobby horse of my

430
00:17:53,890 --> 00:17:52,250
own about some of this is that this is

431
00:17:55,570 --> 00:17:53,900
something that that when I speak to

432
00:17:59,710 --> 00:17:55,580
groups of science journalists in general

433
00:18:01,750 --> 00:17:59,720
i've been i've been pleading with all of

434
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:01,760
us as a profession to try to do some

435
00:18:08,620 --> 00:18:03,770
level of rethink about what constitutes

436
00:18:12,490 --> 00:18:08,630
science news because most of what shows

437
00:18:15,100 --> 00:18:12,500
up as science news at the moment is it

438
00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:15,110
very commonly defaults to a kind of

439
00:18:20,260 --> 00:18:17,600
exciting paper in a very reputable

440
00:18:22,570 --> 00:18:20,270
journal this week and that's what we're

441
00:18:24,730 --> 00:18:22,580
going to make that and that that lends

442
00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:24,740
itself very well to kind of what are in

443
00:18:28,780 --> 00:18:26,480
effect sort of little data points in

444
00:18:31,690 --> 00:18:28,790
science the thing that says you know

445
00:18:34,810 --> 00:18:31,700
broccoli will help prevent prostate

446
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:34,820
cancer and then a few weeks later

447
00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:38,210
another paper comes out and it may some

448
00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:41,230
you know maybe it doesn't say broccoli

449
00:18:45,730 --> 00:18:44,150
will you know will cause prostate cancer

450
00:18:48,130 --> 00:18:45,740
but it may think something like oh

451
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:48,140
broccoli will increase your chances of

452
00:18:51,550 --> 00:18:50,090
heart disease or whatever else and so

453
00:18:53,260 --> 00:18:51,560
you do get a lot of the public that says

454
00:18:55,570 --> 00:18:53,270
am I supposed to eat broccoli or am I

455
00:18:57,490 --> 00:18:55,580
not supposed to put that's right and and

456
00:18:59,770 --> 00:18:57,500
i think india or not to mention the fact

457
00:19:01,540 --> 00:18:59,780
as as you well know signs papers are

458
00:19:05,410 --> 00:19:01,550
published and then they often you know

459
00:19:07,210 --> 00:19:05,420
the results just don't hold up or they

460
00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:07,220
just don't have the full significance or

461
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:10,790
meaning that they sometimes did I mean I

462
00:19:14,020 --> 00:19:11,930
think you can sort of do it would be

463
00:19:15,370 --> 00:19:14,030
sort of an interesting exercise and no

464
00:19:22,180 --> 00:19:15,380
one's going to do this but I mean

465
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:22,190
imagine if the all journalism outlets in

466
00:19:25,180 --> 00:19:23,930
the world decided that they were just

467
00:19:27,130 --> 00:19:25,190
going to

468
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:27,140
declare a certain moratorium that

469
00:19:30,370 --> 00:19:28,730
instead of when a paper comes out it has

470
00:19:32,610 --> 00:19:30,380
to be published and be in the news right

471
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:32,620
that week if everybody was going to say

472
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:35,600
we're not going to publish it for at

473
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:38,930
least three months or six months because

474
00:19:41,710 --> 00:19:40,490
if you did that it would be very very

475
00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:41,720
different because there are a lot of

476
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:44,080
papers that would come up but suddenly

477
00:19:48,850 --> 00:19:46,310
nobody would actually care about three

478
00:19:50,860 --> 00:19:48,860
months later anymore and there are a lot

479
00:19:53,650 --> 00:19:50,870
of things that you know other results

480
00:19:56,340 --> 00:19:53,660
would be processed and brought in now I

481
00:19:58,660 --> 00:19:56,350
think it's really unfortunate that the

482
00:20:01,960 --> 00:19:58,670
this sort of goes to the problem of the

483
00:20:05,290 --> 00:20:01,970
nature of the business of journalism is

484
00:20:06,790 --> 00:20:05,300
that it pushes very very hard for the

485
00:20:10,090 --> 00:20:06,800
importance of things obviously like

486
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:10,100
journalistic scoops and for being very

487
00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:13,450
very competitive and attracting as many

488
00:20:19,450 --> 00:20:15,830
readers or viewers or whatever as

489
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:19,460
possible and you know there are lots of

490
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:20,930
things that are perfectly defensible

491
00:20:26,940 --> 00:20:24,170
about that on lots of terms but but if

492
00:20:31,050 --> 00:20:26,950
if what you're looking to optimize is

493
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:31,060
the public's understanding of science

494
00:20:36,550 --> 00:20:34,610
very broadly there's nothing in that

495
00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:36,560
model for journalism that says that's

496
00:20:40,690 --> 00:20:38,030
what's going to happen yeah you're going

497
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:40,700
to instead get a lot of sort of heard

498
00:20:44,260 --> 00:20:42,770
journalism everybody jumps on certain

499
00:20:45,940 --> 00:20:44,270
kinds of stories because they don't want

500
00:20:48,010 --> 00:20:45,950
to be the one place that didn't do that

501
00:20:51,130 --> 00:20:48,020
story you're going to get a certain

502
00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:51,140
amount of in some cases jumping on some

503
00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:53,600
things a little prematurely and you're

504
00:20:57,070 --> 00:20:55,520
going to get a kind of a focus on

505
00:20:59,170 --> 00:20:57,080
certain kinds of stories that are very

506
00:21:01,090 --> 00:20:59,180
very easy to sell and you're going to

507
00:21:05,020 --> 00:21:01,100
lose a lot of attention whether so

508
00:21:08,350 --> 00:21:05,030
astronomy stories get lots of play in in

509
00:21:12,460 --> 00:21:08,360
the general press stories about animals

510
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:12,470
get a lot of play stories about a lot of

511
00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:15,050
ways our own psychology often get a lot

512
00:21:20,620 --> 00:21:17,180
of attention certain kinds of medical

513
00:21:22,110 --> 00:21:20,630
stories get a lot of attention but come

514
00:21:25,290 --> 00:21:22,120
on the sort of the bread and butter

515
00:21:28,210 --> 00:21:25,300
material science or chemistry stories

516
00:21:30,990 --> 00:21:28,220
the kinds of physics stories that don't

517
00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:31,000
involve things like dark matter or

518
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:34,480
you know or or the Large Hadron Collider

519
00:21:39,060 --> 00:21:36,490
you know things that don't have a

520
00:21:43,170 --> 00:21:39,070
certain kind of glamour to them it's

521
00:21:46,830 --> 00:21:43,180
very very tough to get those a lot of

522
00:21:48,030 --> 00:21:46,840
space routinely in a lot of the general

523
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:48,040
press when you get into the more

524
00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:50,410
specialized press sure then you can then

525
00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:53,110
you can get it but that's that's sort of

526
00:21:59,550 --> 00:21:56,470
not what the problem is the roblem is

527
00:22:04,080 --> 00:21:59,560
the most people think most science

528
00:22:06,060 --> 00:22:04,090
involves a lot of astronomy well on that

529
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:06,070
sort of issue of jumping on a paper as

530
00:22:09,420 --> 00:22:07,810
soon as it's published that sort of is

531
00:22:11,070 --> 00:22:09,430
partly responsible for what happened

532
00:22:13,050 --> 00:22:11,080
with the engine Wakefield study would

533
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:13,060
the autism connection with date with

534
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:16,000
vaccinations in 1998 and I think if

535
00:22:18,510 --> 00:22:17,290
journalists that maybe waited a bit

536
00:22:20,490 --> 00:22:18,520
longer done a little bit more research

537
00:22:22,910 --> 00:22:20,500
they may have found out that you know

538
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:22,920
his previous two papers were actually

539
00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:25,120
demonstrated to be wrong and of course

540
00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:27,280
the health the impact on the public

541
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:29,520
health has been huge in that and

542
00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:32,770
particularly in that example but when we

543
00:22:36,690 --> 00:22:33,910
were talking to Howard Schneider on

544
00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:36,700
Saturday at the conference his opinion

545
00:22:41,340 --> 00:22:38,950
was well we're just reporting the

546
00:22:42,990 --> 00:22:41,350
stories it's up to the public really to

547
00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:43,000
sort of work out whether that's right oh

548
00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:45,310
that's wrong and what's your opinion of

549
00:22:51,540 --> 00:22:47,440
that yeah i think it's i think it's it's

550
00:22:53,310 --> 00:22:51,550
it's tough that's that is a admitted

551
00:22:56,190 --> 00:22:53,320
that there are aspects of that point

552
00:22:59,250 --> 00:22:56,200
that i can argue to myself both ways I

553
00:23:03,990 --> 00:22:59,260
mean I I always feel that it is it is a

554
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:04,000
little disingenuous for us journalists

555
00:23:08,610 --> 00:23:05,650
to be in a position to sometimes say

556
00:23:10,650 --> 00:23:08,620
well we are we're not we don't want to

557
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:10,660
be the gatekeepers we we are just

558
00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:12,850
presenting what is going on out there

559
00:23:17,250 --> 00:23:14,320
we're talking about what other people

560
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:17,260
are saying we you know other people are

561
00:23:20,790 --> 00:23:19,090
the news we are simply the vehicle of

562
00:23:23,250 --> 00:23:20,800
that and if other people are saying this

563
00:23:25,290 --> 00:23:23,260
we have a responsibility to be passing

564
00:23:29,550 --> 00:23:25,300
that along I think it's disingenuous

565
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:29,560
because the reality is that all writers

566
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:32,650
and reporters and editors when they are

567
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:34,570
putting together stories of any kind

568
00:23:37,690 --> 00:23:37,090
inevitably you make choices about what

569
00:23:38,980 --> 00:23:37,700
you're going to

570
00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:38,990
load and what you're not going to

571
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:42,529
include even stories that have you know

572
00:23:47,379 --> 00:23:44,450
that represent a number of points of

573
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:47,389
view do not represent every point of

574
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:49,490
view they represent what they think are

575
00:23:59,980 --> 00:23:57,519
representative major points of view on

576
00:24:01,570 --> 00:23:59,990
this it's impossible to get all the

577
00:24:03,820 --> 00:24:01,580
points of view in any story and in fact

578
00:24:05,710 --> 00:24:03,830
one of the the things that sort of most

579
00:24:09,850 --> 00:24:05,720
misleading is how many controversies are

580
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:09,860
are set up as as just two sided it's a

581
00:24:15,129 --> 00:24:13,130
or its be well he asked with a B and an

582
00:24:18,370 --> 00:24:15,139
entire alphabet of other perspectives on

583
00:24:21,580 --> 00:24:18,380
this that actually may have more or

584
00:24:24,730 --> 00:24:21,590
fewer things in common with those first

585
00:24:26,620 --> 00:24:24,740
two that you set up so it's not the case

586
00:24:28,990 --> 00:24:26,630
that when we're journalists that we're

587
00:24:30,820 --> 00:24:29,000
always you know that weird that we're

588
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:30,830
not that the problem on that we are

589
00:24:34,450 --> 00:24:32,570
making those choices well on the other

590
00:24:36,899 --> 00:24:34,460
hand it is also the case that with some

591
00:24:39,850 --> 00:24:36,909
of these things kind of frustratingly

592
00:24:41,139 --> 00:24:39,860
particularly when this when the you know

593
00:24:43,870 --> 00:24:41,149
I think those of us who have a lot of

594
00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:43,880
interests in science we sometimes just

595
00:24:47,649 --> 00:24:46,190
expected that the newspapers but that

596
00:24:49,330 --> 00:24:47,659
most of their interest in most of their

597
00:24:51,039 --> 00:24:49,340
stories is going to be that kind of

598
00:24:54,340 --> 00:24:51,049
scientific one but I think a lot of

599
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:54,350
times the editors and reporters and

600
00:24:58,180 --> 00:24:56,570
writers would point out that the

601
00:25:00,580 --> 00:24:58,190
responsibility they actually have been

602
00:25:03,820 --> 00:25:00,590
publishing this goes considerably beyond

603
00:25:05,259 --> 00:25:03,830
all of that and that there are you know

604
00:25:06,909 --> 00:25:05,269
some of those kinds of things that they

605
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:06,919
do have to acknowledge and that the

606
00:25:10,180 --> 00:25:08,690
stories are not as we talked about

607
00:25:11,740 --> 00:25:10,190
earlier they're not clearly sort of

608
00:25:13,659 --> 00:25:11,750
partitioned down to here's the science

609
00:25:15,159 --> 00:25:13,669
component to this here's the social

610
00:25:19,450 --> 00:25:15,169
compulsion component this here's the

611
00:25:22,029 --> 00:25:19,460
political component of this you know you

612
00:25:24,580 --> 00:25:22,039
you do need sometimes you do need a

613
00:25:26,649 --> 00:25:24,590
smarter public because because there's

614
00:25:29,649 --> 00:25:26,659
something fun as your your public just

615
00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:29,659
doesn't they just don't understand what

616
00:25:34,870 --> 00:25:32,240
they're being told I mean Ben Goldacre

617
00:25:36,879 --> 00:25:34,880
for example he criticizes science

618
00:25:38,889 --> 00:25:36,889
journalists for sir for the fact that

619
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:38,899
they dumbed down things too much and he

620
00:25:43,210 --> 00:25:40,250
says you know you watch the news every

621
00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:43,220
night and there's detail reports on the

622
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:45,289
economy in the financial situation and

623
00:25:48,789 --> 00:25:47,330
not many of us are trained in finance or

624
00:25:50,150 --> 00:25:48,799
economy so they're talking about things

625
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:50,160
that we don't understand but they don't

626
00:25:55,730 --> 00:25:52,890
down whereas he thinks that science is

627
00:25:57,650 --> 00:25:55,740
to dump down but if the public is that

628
00:25:59,600 --> 00:25:57,660
challenged in terms of their scientific

629
00:26:01,340 --> 00:25:59,610
knowledge then maybe we have to do that

630
00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:01,350
it's a good point I mean I do sometimes

631
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:04,230
wonder you know that's a reasonable

632
00:26:08,150 --> 00:26:06,570
argument that men is raising about

633
00:26:09,770 --> 00:26:08,160
something that I do sometimes wonder

634
00:26:11,330 --> 00:26:09,780
whether if you talked to people who are

635
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:11,340
say professional economists at what they

636
00:26:14,810 --> 00:26:12,570
would make Erica I don't know that's

637
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:14,820
that's a very dumbed-down presentation

638
00:26:20,330 --> 00:26:17,130
of what's going on in my field so maybe

639
00:26:21,980 --> 00:26:20,340
maybe some AAA maybe but but i mean i'd

640
00:26:23,690 --> 00:26:21,990
be willing to concede that that you know

641
00:26:26,780 --> 00:26:23,700
that may not be the case that the fact

642
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:26,790
is it is it is i mean there are a lot of

643
00:26:32,950 --> 00:26:29,970
attitudes that are very deeply ingrained

644
00:26:36,770 --> 00:26:32,960
may be wrongly within a lot of

645
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:36,780
journalism that do cut into some of

646
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:38,250
those questions about about what you're

647
00:26:42,740 --> 00:26:39,570
going to present there is a very strong

648
00:26:44,990 --> 00:26:42,750
sense that a lot of your public is going

649
00:26:47,270 --> 00:26:45,000
to run screaming off into the night if

650
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:47,280
you do start to get a little too

651
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:49,230
technical little too detailed and this

652
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:50,640
is where it's tricky because i think you

653
00:26:54,770 --> 00:26:52,290
almost do want to look or talk about

654
00:26:56,780 --> 00:26:54,780
talking about media or the press or

655
00:26:59,210 --> 00:26:56,790
newspapers or whatever else they're such

656
00:27:00,260 --> 00:26:59,220
broad categories that you almost want to

657
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:00,270
take these things on a cave of

658
00:27:07,070 --> 00:27:04,320
case-by-case basis the kind of things

659
00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:07,080
that you know public television

660
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:09,600
audiences might be willing to watch on a

661
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:11,130
Sunday evening may be very very

662
00:27:17,390 --> 00:27:13,130
different from the kinds of things that

663
00:27:19,370 --> 00:27:17,400
you know aa8 it a different swath of the

664
00:27:22,850 --> 00:27:19,380
public wants to watch on like it's

665
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:22,860
morning television news program who was

666
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:24,810
it the PT Barnum or who is so someone is

667
00:27:30,410 --> 00:27:27,810
credited with saying the note no one

668
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:30,420
ever went broke by under estimating the

669
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:31,890
intelligence of the amount of the

670
00:27:37,970 --> 00:27:35,090
American public it's a patronizing

671
00:27:39,860 --> 00:27:37,980
perspective to take on it and yet a lot

672
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:39,870
of people have managed to make a lot of

673
00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:42,930
money that way and you know people I

674
00:27:47,060 --> 00:27:45,360
think they love times of people who are

675
00:27:49,070 --> 00:27:47,070
in these perspective positions to make

676
00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:49,080
these decisions they default to what

677
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:50,400
seems like well the safer more

678
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:52,770
conservative assumption is that people

679
00:27:59,720 --> 00:27:54,690
won't actually be very interested in

680
00:28:01,370 --> 00:27:59,730
this so when in doubt heads toward the

681
00:28:04,370 --> 00:28:01,380
realization that there

682
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:04,380
were to get out of here I do think I

683
00:28:06,650 --> 00:28:05,370
mean I say this is something you know

684
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:06,660
somebody associated with scientific

685
00:28:13,490 --> 00:28:10,410
american which is certainly the

686
00:28:15,950 --> 00:28:13,500
antithesis of that in many many ways i

687
00:28:18,410 --> 00:28:15,960
have to say scientists are really I've

688
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:18,420
in my in my judgment is somebody who

689
00:28:23,810 --> 00:28:20,130
sits there kind of intermediary between

690
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:23,820
the Scientific American audience and the

691
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:26,730
the scientists authors who write for us

692
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:29,250
I think a lot of scientists do sometimes

693
00:28:37,970 --> 00:28:32,610
get a distorted perspective about just

694
00:28:40,550 --> 00:28:37,980
how fascinated a lot of the public might

695
00:28:42,620 --> 00:28:40,560
be with their work or how equipped they

696
00:28:44,830 --> 00:28:42,630
are to be able to do it what do you mean

697
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:44,840
I know it's hard to imagine isn't it

698
00:28:52,580 --> 00:28:49,970
yeah well not your work of course not my

699
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:52,590
that's but that's right i mean i think

700
00:28:58,190 --> 00:28:54,570
people that you know think they do i

701
00:29:00,290 --> 00:28:58,200
mean i recall in days of you know of

702
00:29:01,910 --> 00:29:00,300
editing articles with with various

703
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:01,920
scientists of really having to convince

704
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:05,730
them that most people did not know what

705
00:29:10,460 --> 00:29:08,730
messenger RNA is it's like you know and

706
00:29:12,590 --> 00:29:10,470
i would say i would say we have to stop

707
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:12,600
and we have to at least explain what

708
00:29:19,310 --> 00:29:16,010
messenger RNA is and you know they

709
00:29:20,990 --> 00:29:19,320
already bristling against some of the

710
00:29:22,550 --> 00:29:21,000
kind of the word constraints that we

711
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:22,560
were already faced with so everybody

712
00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:24,810
knows that I'm I swear to you they don't

713
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:27,510
I swear to you they have no they don't

714
00:29:31,820 --> 00:29:29,490
really necessarily know what genes are

715
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:31,830
you know they're familiar in a very

716
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:34,320
general general way but the notion that

717
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:37,410
genes make proteins it's probably worth

718
00:29:42,050 --> 00:29:39,090
reminding them of that sort of thing so

719
00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:42,060
I mean I think even if we embrace the

720
00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:45,510
idea that the public's actual tolerance

721
00:29:49,250 --> 00:29:47,520
for a lot of this and their interest in

722
00:29:53,330 --> 00:29:49,260
a lot of the science is significantly

723
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:53,340
higher than then maybe in practice we in

724
00:29:59,300 --> 00:29:56,850
the media given credit for the i would

725
00:30:00,520 --> 00:29:59,310
say you still want to be kind of careful

726
00:30:02,740 --> 00:30:00,530
about that

727
00:30:04,810 --> 00:30:02,750
and and and be aware of the fact that

728
00:30:07,330 --> 00:30:04,820
you know people do have a lot of other

729
00:30:09,460 --> 00:30:07,340
interests it's very very easy especially

730
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:09,470
these days for them to get distracted

731
00:30:13,930 --> 00:30:12,530
off by something else so I think a

732
00:30:16,810 --> 00:30:13,940
fascinating thing with with scientific

733
00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:16,820
American's readership is seeing that a

734
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:20,510
lot a great many of scientific

735
00:30:25,210 --> 00:30:22,730
American's Raiders deeply deeply love

736
00:30:27,450 --> 00:30:25,220
articles about very hard two kinds of

737
00:30:29,710 --> 00:30:27,460
physics maybe that's not too surprising

738
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:29,720
what I think is interesting is that is

739
00:30:33,010 --> 00:30:31,370
that we would do our own kind of surveys

740
00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:33,020
about about the responses to various

741
00:30:36,550 --> 00:30:35,030
articles and it I thought it was

742
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:36,560
interesting to see that sometimes you

743
00:30:40,990 --> 00:30:38,690
would get results that said that that

744
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:41,000
some of the hardest articles about

745
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:43,370
physics were the ones that not just that

746
00:30:47,260 --> 00:30:45,890
readers were most interested in but that

747
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:47,270
sometimes that they were the ones that

748
00:30:53,470 --> 00:30:49,850
they that they thought were were a

749
00:30:55,540 --> 00:30:53,480
clearest and most compelling which is

750
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:55,550
fascinating because as somebody who's in

751
00:31:00,210 --> 00:30:57,770
cases spent weeks on those articles I'm

752
00:31:02,740 --> 00:31:00,220
pretty sure they can't possibly actually

753
00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:02,750
understand those articles in detail as

754
00:31:08,140 --> 00:31:05,840
well as they as well as they think they

755
00:31:09,790 --> 00:31:08,150
do and I say that not just sort of on

756
00:31:12,250 --> 00:31:09,800
you know my own reflection of that but

757
00:31:14,740 --> 00:31:12,260
basically because of editors and even

758
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:14,750
the author's themselves wrestling with

759
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:16,490
what they were getting into print it was

760
00:31:20,980 --> 00:31:18,770
like this is really still not always

761
00:31:22,570 --> 00:31:20,990
quite as lucid as we would like and yet

762
00:31:25,230 --> 00:31:22,580
people would drink that sort of thing up

763
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:25,240
so sometimes people really really do

764
00:31:30,610 --> 00:31:27,770
love that and want that in-depth

765
00:31:33,970 --> 00:31:30,620
information and to a at least some of

766
00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:33,980
them to a far greater extent than a lot

767
00:31:37,870 --> 00:31:35,600
of the public would or a lot of the

768
00:31:39,730 --> 00:31:37,880
journalism profession would accept that

769
00:31:42,460 --> 00:31:39,740
they're willing to tolerate not

770
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:42,470
completely understanding things as long

771
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:43,910
as they feel like they're getting closer

772
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:45,890
to that big answer so how can I release

773
00:31:49,270 --> 00:31:47,090
those find out more about what you're

774
00:31:51,490 --> 00:31:49,280
doing now is it oh well at the moment

775
00:31:53,740 --> 00:31:51,500
that's a good question i have i will

776
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:53,750
probably get some sort of website or

777
00:31:57,580 --> 00:31:55,250
whatever set up for myself at the moment

778
00:31:59,470 --> 00:31:57,590
but i think just to looking around for

779
00:32:02,800 --> 00:31:59,480
my name popping up on things have nose

780
00:32:04,510 --> 00:32:02,810
google manages to turn things like hey

781
00:32:06,220 --> 00:32:04,520
you mentioned earlier that if you google

782
00:32:07,690 --> 00:32:06,230
to you that you get some interesting

783
00:32:09,049 --> 00:32:07,700
things turning up yes well it's

784
00:32:10,730 --> 00:32:09,059
interesting the third

785
00:32:12,739 --> 00:32:10,740
you google for John running and

786
00:32:14,239 --> 00:32:12,749
scientific america and you know the the

787
00:32:18,110 --> 00:32:14,249
obvious things would would turn out but

788
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:18,120
you also rapidly you see many many

789
00:32:23,810 --> 00:32:21,690
online screeds from various people in

790
00:32:26,029 --> 00:32:23,820
the creationist community the cold

791
00:32:27,889 --> 00:32:26,039
fusion community the nanotech community

792
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:27,899
and of course a lot of people who were

793
00:32:33,940 --> 00:32:30,210
great fans of a Bjorn Lomborg The

794
00:32:39,580 --> 00:32:33,950
Skeptical environmentalist also had a

795
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:39,590
well noted a set of exchanges over time

796
00:32:43,159 --> 00:32:41,850
all right jumble thank you so much for

797
00:32:45,919 --> 00:32:43,169
joining us today on the skeptics I'm

798
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:45,929
always my pleasure thank you and a big

799
00:32:50,060 --> 00:32:47,610
thank you to John ready for taking his

800
00:32:52,009 --> 00:32:50,070
time to talk to us if you want to find

801
00:32:54,289 --> 00:32:52,019
out more about some of John's previous

802
00:32:57,139 --> 00:32:54,299
work at Scientific American head to

803
00:33:10,120 --> 00:32:57,149
scientificamerican.com and until next

804
00:33:14,570 --> 00:33:13,010
hi I'm Jason and I'm Andrew from the

805
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:14,580
nonsense podcast bringing you a

806
00:33:19,159 --> 00:33:17,370
skeptical overview of news religion and

807
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:19,169
all forms of pseudoscience we're

808
00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:20,970
defending science and reason against the

809
00:33:24,350 --> 00:33:22,529
onslaught of medical and spiritual

810
00:33:26,389 --> 00:33:24,360
nonsense all week we are busy

811
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:26,399
researching and debunking pseudoscience

812
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:29,100
but on the seventh day we listened to

813
00:33:34,159 --> 00:33:30,960
the skeptic zone check us out at

814
00:33:44,129 --> 00:33:34,169
Monson's podcast libsyn com or search

815
00:33:48,940 --> 00:33:46,659
it's the first thursday of the month

816
00:33:51,999 --> 00:33:48,950
here in sydney first thursday remember

817
00:33:58,770 --> 00:33:52,009
and i'm at central train station making

818
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:00,660
the pub for skeptics in the pub is

819
00:34:05,310 --> 00:34:03,610
located downtown Sydney not too far from

820
00:34:08,130 --> 00:34:05,320
central train station which is

821
00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:08,140
convenient and very close to museum

822
00:34:15,210 --> 00:34:11,919
train station a crown hotel the corner

823
00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:15,220
of Elizabeth and Goldman streets now

824
00:34:20,419 --> 00:34:16,960
skeptics in the pub starts at six

825
00:34:23,130 --> 00:34:20,429
o'clock and it's coming up to 5 30 now

826
00:34:24,890 --> 00:34:23,140
lots of office workers walking the other

827
00:34:28,649 --> 00:34:24,900
way towards central stations I walk

828
00:34:31,649 --> 00:34:28,659
towards the pub train one of the city's

829
00:34:35,970 --> 00:34:31,659
trains going by me he comes a tram it's

830
00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:35,980
all happening I think it's quite a good

831
00:34:42,750 --> 00:34:39,840
coincidence that the venue for the 2010

832
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:42,760
skeptics convention which will be held

833
00:34:47,850 --> 00:34:45,490
from November the 26 to the 28 2010

834
00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:47,860
there's only one block away from the

835
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:50,320
skeptics in the pub I think some of us

836
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:54,610
may end up there well you know it I'm

837
00:35:00,120 --> 00:34:57,970
the first one here upstairs in the crown

838
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:00,130
hotel is a lovely big room it says a

839
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:03,970
restaurant normally and they the Crown

840
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:06,370
Hotel basically given it to the skeptics

841
00:35:10,380 --> 00:35:08,770
for our use on the first thursday of the

842
00:35:14,250 --> 00:35:10,390
month because they know we bring in lots

843
00:35:15,630 --> 00:35:14,260
of people very wise and there are

844
00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:15,640
skeptics in the pub I'm here with

845
00:35:19,410 --> 00:35:17,710
William brew hi William hello how are

846
00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:19,420
you going I'm really well now you've

847
00:35:24,150 --> 00:35:22,000
interviewed me in the past time to get

848
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:24,160
your revenge on me now big revenge time

849
00:35:27,870 --> 00:35:26,050
so you you've been having long

850
00:35:28,770 --> 00:35:27,880
description of now for two years or

851
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:28,780
something like there would be at least

852
00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:31,090
around to you know we met originally on

853
00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:36,250
a in a extras waiting area for Telstra

854
00:35:40,110 --> 00:35:38,080
to Telstra and then we met again on home

855
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:40,120
and away of all place yeah it's the only

856
00:35:44,250 --> 00:35:42,400
way you meet people is yes it is great

857
00:35:45,390 --> 00:35:44,260
but I remember when I met you and we

858
00:35:47,350 --> 00:35:45,400
were sitting around talking about

859
00:35:49,630 --> 00:35:47,360
astrology we were in a caravan

860
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:49,640
caravan mouse astrology yeah and you

861
00:35:52,780 --> 00:35:51,050
were saying to these people as they were

862
00:35:55,750 --> 00:35:52,790
at their style signs do you actually

863
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:55,760
think it's true that's when I suddenly

864
00:35:59,740 --> 00:35:58,130
woke up in a bit who is this guy yeah

865
00:36:01,930 --> 00:35:59,750
you explain where you were from yeah

866
00:36:04,990 --> 00:36:01,940
yeah that'll took off from there yeah um

867
00:36:06,010 --> 00:36:05,000
and you've been guessed as we say you've

868
00:36:08,230 --> 00:36:06,020
been coming here for two years now you

869
00:36:10,330 --> 00:36:08,240
are a bit of a known person you've been

870
00:36:12,190 --> 00:36:10,340
a roving reporter haven't you I have yes

871
00:36:14,890 --> 00:36:12,200
I did some work for cycle bad side kicks

872
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:14,900
with uk-based site I'm based out here so

873
00:36:18,610 --> 00:36:16,250
I do a bit of stuff in Australia for

874
00:36:20,260 --> 00:36:18,620
them and it was through you that I

875
00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:20,270
actually want I discovered them first I

876
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:22,190
discovered year I know that that the guy

877
00:36:25,780 --> 00:36:24,050
who runs the site you both know each

878
00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:25,790
other professionally yeah yeah yeah

879
00:36:29,470 --> 00:36:27,710
we're all linked in that way gone yes

880
00:36:31,330 --> 00:36:29,480
sir john donne is so we're all linked

881
00:36:32,890 --> 00:36:31,340
we're like three degrees of separation

882
00:36:35,230 --> 00:36:32,900
and we did something for you you

883
00:36:37,570 --> 00:36:35,240
supplied us with a reading unit yes a

884
00:36:39,820 --> 00:36:37,580
well-known so-called medium psychic from

885
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:39,830
the UK can I mention her oh yeah sally

886
00:36:43,630 --> 00:36:42,320
morgan okay people over there will know

887
00:36:45,940 --> 00:36:43,640
immediately who she is she's got her own

888
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:45,950
TV show I had a reading from her before

889
00:36:50,350 --> 00:36:48,770
she was well known and it's the only

890
00:36:52,930 --> 00:36:50,360
time I've seen a psychic that's in about

891
00:36:55,870 --> 00:36:52,940
12 13 and iPhone many more up lost a lot

892
00:36:58,420 --> 00:36:55,880
of money who made me question said she

893
00:36:59,650 --> 00:36:58,430
said certain things which rung true but

894
00:37:01,960 --> 00:36:59,660
you actually showed me the tricks of the

895
00:37:04,510 --> 00:37:01,970
trade it was reading bit of hot reading

896
00:37:07,420 --> 00:37:04,520
here in there and although I still have

897
00:37:08,590 --> 00:37:07,430
a couple of questions I still have not

898
00:37:10,210 --> 00:37:08,600
seen the evidence but there's only

899
00:37:11,980 --> 00:37:10,220
mediumship all psychics who actually

900
00:37:14,590 --> 00:37:11,990
have genuine skills it's interesting

901
00:37:18,180 --> 00:37:14,600
though you it really is a case of taking

902
00:37:21,010 --> 00:37:18,190
a reading and it's a long process but

903
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:21,020
typing it out transcribing it and then

904
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:23,210
going through it line by line to follow

905
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:25,370
the logic and the threads and the

906
00:37:30,220 --> 00:37:28,130
answers and where it leads all the tell

907
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:30,230
of a long press a big process but it's

908
00:37:34,030 --> 00:37:32,210
worthwhile in the end and assuming you

909
00:37:36,190 --> 00:37:34,040
can't do in two minutes after hearing a

910
00:37:37,690 --> 00:37:36,200
really can't you've actually got to

911
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:37,700
listen to what the person's got to say

912
00:37:43,420 --> 00:37:39,710
got to us and say transcribe it you've

913
00:37:44,740 --> 00:37:43,430
got to then examine it analyzes and not

914
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:44,750
going with the attitude that it's going

915
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:47,030
to be fake sort of going objectively and

916
00:37:50,410 --> 00:37:48,890
then sieve does it make sense or does it

917
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:50,420
not make sense and of course you showed

918
00:37:52,670 --> 00:37:51,119
me if it

919
00:37:54,650 --> 00:37:52,680
but definitely for most part anyway it

920
00:37:56,690 --> 00:37:54,660
didn't make sense yeah yeah and it also

921
00:37:59,599 --> 00:37:56,700
helps you realize how many questions

922
00:38:01,190 --> 00:37:59,609
were asked of you and not and all the

923
00:38:02,690 --> 00:38:01,200
rest of it and the other thing is I'm

924
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:02,700
listening back to it because actually

925
00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:04,410
isn't battery most of what she said was

926
00:38:09,049 --> 00:38:06,720
totally wrong and even bits which could

927
00:38:11,420 --> 00:38:09,059
have been generalized somehow I linked

928
00:38:12,859 --> 00:38:11,430
it to being true yes closer for me it

929
00:38:15,289 --> 00:38:12,869
was true at the time but listening back

930
00:38:18,170 --> 00:38:15,299
you know I listened in back it also

931
00:38:19,759 --> 00:38:18,180
gives the opportunity to to remember

932
00:38:21,499 --> 00:38:19,769
things that you would naturally forget

933
00:38:23,989 --> 00:38:21,509
in a reading like things that didn't hit

934
00:38:25,789 --> 00:38:23,999
home so after a half hour reading you

935
00:38:27,410 --> 00:38:25,799
can remember I don't know a tenth of

936
00:38:29,509 --> 00:38:27,420
what was said because most of what was

937
00:38:30,799 --> 00:38:29,519
said was didn't and you've said it

938
00:38:32,779 --> 00:38:30,809
yourself and have a remainder of the

939
00:38:34,220 --> 00:38:32,789
hits but not the missus that's right and

940
00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:34,230
he said that many times yeah yeah that's

941
00:38:37,819 --> 00:38:35,609
something I always tell people and i'm

942
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:37,829
amazed i've got a good circle of friends

943
00:38:42,499 --> 00:38:40,710
and most of them are believers one of

944
00:38:44,569 --> 00:38:42,509
them his mother's a so-called faith

945
00:38:47,299 --> 00:38:44,579
healer and so we're really good friends

946
00:38:48,620 --> 00:38:47,309
but we do clash yeah but even him I

947
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:48,630
think it's getting through to him and I

948
00:38:51,980 --> 00:38:50,400
say things when I questioned him why do

949
00:38:53,329 --> 00:38:51,990
you think echinacea works what's it

950
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:53,339
actually doing for you you know all

951
00:38:58,190 --> 00:38:56,130
these things and it's not about forcing

952
00:38:59,509 --> 00:38:58,200
your views on people it's about making

953
00:39:01,519 --> 00:38:59,519
them see that perhaps as another

954
00:39:03,710 --> 00:39:01,529
argument perhaps making them question

955
00:39:06,109 --> 00:39:03,720
their own beliefs yes it's never an easy

956
00:39:08,539 --> 00:39:06,119
thing to do you have to be very tactful

957
00:39:10,849 --> 00:39:08,549
sometimes and sometimes you can't I want

958
00:39:12,529 --> 00:39:10,859
to know you you temper gets the better

959
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:12,539
here sometimes and you say look it's

960
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:14,730
rubbish all right wait you can get very

961
00:39:18,499 --> 00:39:16,410
antagonistic I no longer bother telling

962
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:18,509
people it's rubbish because yeah what

963
00:39:23,089 --> 00:39:20,910
they do is decide oh me I alienate them

964
00:39:24,170 --> 00:39:23,099
I get nowhere I Satan if you want to

965
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:24,180
talk about it i'll talk about it with

966
00:39:27,140 --> 00:39:25,890
you but that's my view if you want to

967
00:39:28,819 --> 00:39:27,150
know my view i'll tell you in my view

968
00:39:30,739 --> 00:39:28,829
but if that's your view then that's

969
00:39:31,819 --> 00:39:30,749
great i do have the rest live every now

970
00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:31,829
and then suddenly there's a part of me

971
00:39:34,849 --> 00:39:33,089
just wants to say it and get it over

972
00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:34,859
with especially it's something like the

973
00:39:38,749 --> 00:39:36,480
mind-body-spirit festival where people

974
00:39:40,370 --> 00:39:38,759
are peddling utter rubbish you know i

975
00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:40,380
went to one Ainger asst that i went to

976
00:39:44,059 --> 00:39:42,390
one of them last year and you see these

977
00:39:45,620 --> 00:39:44,069
people who come across as all sweet and

978
00:39:47,690 --> 00:39:45,630
light in SE and I light and Ronnie

979
00:39:50,690 --> 00:39:47,700
really friendly as soon as you start

980
00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:50,700
questioning them their face changes that

981
00:39:55,079 --> 00:39:52,710
whole yellowing look yeah become really

982
00:39:56,999 --> 00:39:55,089
serious because they deviated from there

983
00:39:59,009 --> 00:39:57,009
and they're back in the defense has come

984
00:40:00,329 --> 00:39:59,019
up they did and they don't know how to

985
00:40:01,979 --> 00:40:00,339
answer and they want to get rid of and I

986
00:40:03,029 --> 00:40:01,989
notice when you gave them the hundred

987
00:40:04,469 --> 00:40:03,039
it's a hundred thousand dollars yeah

988
00:40:08,130 --> 00:40:04,479
hundred thousand dollars here rather

989
00:40:09,930 --> 00:40:08,140
than embrace it they walk away yeah that

990
00:40:11,579 --> 00:40:09,940
is found if I had something but I

991
00:40:13,140 --> 00:40:11,589
thought I could prove if you offered me

992
00:40:15,150 --> 00:40:13,150
a hundred thousand dollars hey I'll take

993
00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:15,160
it yeah say there's something which

994
00:40:19,259 --> 00:40:17,049
doesn't add up there it's all brats it

995
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:19,269
does that up edge rapid optics played a

996
00:40:23,099 --> 00:40:21,130
real reason well the numerology it all

997
00:40:24,479 --> 00:40:23,109
adds up there is that when i first met

998
00:40:26,190 --> 00:40:24,489
you there also not not just talking

999
00:40:28,799 --> 00:40:26,200
about astrology but numerology as well

1000
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:28,809
were they yeah doesn't add up to me but

1001
00:40:33,420 --> 00:40:30,249
you know that's one of the things about

1002
00:40:34,979 --> 00:40:33,430
it how can our listeners cease more of

1003
00:40:38,370 --> 00:40:34,989
your work or hear more of your reports

1004
00:40:40,650 --> 00:40:38,380
well they can see my work on ww bad

1005
00:40:45,749 --> 00:40:40,660
psychics calm on my own youtube channel

1006
00:40:47,729 --> 00:40:45,759
which is ww youtube com / kensington 25

1007
00:40:49,859 --> 00:40:47,739
kensington 25 that's right you do a lot

1008
00:40:51,180 --> 00:40:49,869
of video reports i do you from all

1009
00:40:52,979 --> 00:40:51,190
around the world more round of the world

1010
00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:52,989
interviews most of them here in

1011
00:40:57,390 --> 00:40:54,910
australia yes stuff from America from

1012
00:40:58,769 --> 00:40:57,400
the UK from Europe Asia jus do check it

1013
00:41:01,109 --> 00:40:58,779
out and also check that psychics out

1014
00:41:03,359 --> 00:41:01,119
that was the site which introduced me to

1015
00:41:05,609 --> 00:41:03,369
skepticism and through them I found out

1016
00:41:17,069 --> 00:41:05,619
about you excellent so good to see

1017
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:20,949
the sky was velvet black with diamond

1018
00:41:26,140 --> 00:41:23,839
stars in the night and the sparkled

1019
00:41:28,539 --> 00:41:26,150
starlight fell like a gentle rain of

1020
00:41:31,479 --> 00:41:28,549
light be sprinkling the earth in a

1021
00:41:34,380 --> 00:41:31,489
shimmering silver cloak falling on the

1022
00:41:37,630 --> 00:41:34,390
campsite and be dazzling the city folk

1023
00:41:40,269 --> 00:41:37,640
dry desert air died the campfire in

1024
00:41:42,849 --> 00:41:40,279
glowing embers and the storyteller told

1025
00:41:44,739 --> 00:41:42,859
a tale which only he remembers of a

1026
00:41:47,650 --> 00:41:44,749
night he saw the minmin light deep

1027
00:41:51,059 --> 00:41:47,660
within the dark on a distant desert clay

1028
00:41:53,620 --> 00:41:51,069
pan in an earth scape cold and stark

1029
00:41:56,529 --> 00:41:53,630
smiling twinkle lights laughing in the

1030
00:41:58,959 --> 00:41:56,539
cool crisp air and moving like men where

1031
00:42:01,390 --> 00:41:58,969
he knew none were there just blinking in

1032
00:42:04,029 --> 00:42:01,400
the distance moving closer as he stared

1033
00:42:07,209 --> 00:42:04,039
but he didn't move a muscle and was

1034
00:42:09,729 --> 00:42:07,219
quite unprepared the minmin took on

1035
00:42:12,339 --> 00:42:09,739
human form and entered his domain he

1036
00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:12,349
thought his mind was playing tricks deep

1037
00:42:18,159 --> 00:42:14,569
inside his brain and he rubbed his eyes

1038
00:42:20,259 --> 00:42:18,169
and tried in vain to clear his mind but

1039
00:42:23,499 --> 00:42:20,269
men men were around him and his fear was

1040
00:42:25,959 --> 00:42:23,509
left behind they took him starlight

1041
00:42:28,659 --> 00:42:25,969
strolling across their astral plane and

1042
00:42:31,419 --> 00:42:28,669
showed him in minn secrets of secret min

1043
00:42:34,779 --> 00:42:31,429
min pain unknown trials of tribal

1044
00:42:37,479 --> 00:42:34,789
nations for thousands of years and then

1045
00:42:39,849 --> 00:42:37,489
the storyteller stopped and had to dry

1046
00:42:42,219 --> 00:42:39,859
his tears memories of the light and the

1047
00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:42,229
night he learnt their tail came back to

1048
00:42:47,169 --> 00:42:44,390
flood emotion as a motion would prevail

1049
00:42:49,899 --> 00:42:47,179
when he told this lost tale from a long

1050
00:42:53,250 --> 00:42:49,909
time in history and he filled all the

1051
00:42:55,290 --> 00:42:53,260
city folk with question and mystery

1052
00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:55,300
then the merest missed appeared at the

1053
00:43:00,240 --> 00:42:58,090
city campus site would this be a sacred

1054
00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:00,250
visit from the gods min min light and

1055
00:43:06,270 --> 00:43:03,310
the storyteller slowly stood and pointed

1056
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:06,280
for he knew the min min men were coming

1057
00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:09,610
as the light came into view like the

1058
00:43:14,070 --> 00:43:12,160
softer stars on horseback riding across

1059
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:14,080
the flat they were getting ever closer

1060
00:43:19,170 --> 00:43:16,450
to where the campers SAT and the city

1061
00:43:22,590 --> 00:43:19,180
slickers paled blood drained from their

1062
00:43:26,190 --> 00:43:22,600
faces as the min min lights arrived and

1063
00:43:28,590 --> 00:43:26,200
absorbed all their traces all the city

1064
00:43:31,230 --> 00:43:28,600
people vanished but not the mid moon man

1065
00:43:33,750 --> 00:43:31,240
he was left to tell the min min tale the

1066
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:33,760
best way that he can by taking city

1067
00:43:38,820 --> 00:43:36,010
visitors to those Outback points he

1068
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:38,830
knows to turn them into min min lights

1069
00:44:02,260 --> 00:44:00,340
and now come back with this 21 years to

1070
00:44:06,300 --> 00:44:02,270
the Australian skeptics national

1071
00:44:17,690 --> 00:44:06,310
convention in 1988 his Peter Bealls

1072
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:19,340
I won't give you very long but the first

1073
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:21,450
speaker for this session is Peter Bealls

1074
00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:23,760
to the computer programmer and he'll be

1075
00:44:34,700 --> 00:44:32,160
giving you an overview of the new age in

1076
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:34,710
the next 20 minutes or so probably more

1077
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:37,890
like 15 I'll attempt to outline some of

1078
00:44:45,620 --> 00:44:41,760
the phenomena of the new age what is the

1079
00:44:51,340 --> 00:44:45,630
new age good question it's not an easy

1080
00:44:56,450 --> 00:44:51,350
one to answer when did the new age begin

1081
00:44:58,220 --> 00:44:56,460
did it begin with the Age of Aquarius or

1082
00:45:01,010 --> 00:44:58,230
did it begin with the harmonic

1083
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:01,020
convergence of August 16 and 17 last

1084
00:45:11,330 --> 00:45:06,170
year well in the magazine Maggie's Farm

1085
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:11,340
issue number 36 on page 27 it says that

1086
00:45:18,970 --> 00:45:13,650
the New Age began with the splitting of

1087
00:45:24,130 --> 00:45:18,980
the atom it all depends on who you ask

1088
00:45:29,420 --> 00:45:24,140
the new age is a collective conscious

1089
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:29,430
hoping for a rosy future a change from

1090
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:32,010
the modern world of war mongering and

1091
00:45:40,820 --> 00:45:36,410
planet-destroying science new age new

1092
00:45:45,830 --> 00:45:40,830
ages believe in a human link up to

1093
00:45:50,780 --> 00:45:45,840
change the world for the better common

1094
00:45:54,110 --> 00:45:50,790
themes in New Age magazines are a great

1095
00:45:58,720 --> 00:45:54,120
concern for wellbeing of the earth and

1096
00:46:04,150 --> 00:45:58,730
all life meditation crystal power

1097
00:46:07,450 --> 00:46:04,160
crystal healing natural healing

1098
00:46:11,980 --> 00:46:07,460
channeling or spiritualism if you like

1099
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:11,990
world peace communal lifestyles

1100
00:46:22,030 --> 00:46:16,010
alternative energy alternative medicine

1101
00:46:24,860 --> 00:46:22,040
Human Rights UFOs pyramid ology

1102
00:46:27,650 --> 00:46:24,870
radionics all sorts of stuff obviously

1103
00:46:29,390 --> 00:46:27,660
in the time allowed I can't possibly

1104
00:46:31,140 --> 00:46:29,400
speak on all these topics so I've

1105
00:46:34,530 --> 00:46:31,150
selected just a few

1106
00:46:37,110 --> 00:46:34,540
believers in the New Age philosophy also

1107
00:46:40,980 --> 00:46:37,120
attempt to look into the future in a

1108
00:46:45,420 --> 00:46:40,990
variety of ways some of the methods used

1109
00:46:47,690 --> 00:46:45,430
are thousands of years old which makes

1110
00:46:52,110 --> 00:46:47,700
me wonder just how new the new age

1111
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:52,120
really is this question will be explored

1112
00:46:57,380 --> 00:46:54,610
further in a debate this afternoon

1113
00:47:01,020 --> 00:46:57,390
between the skeptics and the Mystics

1114
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:01,030
topic being that the new age is old

1115
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:10,050
take astrology for example astrology

1116
00:47:15,930 --> 00:47:12,730
according to my dictionary is the study

1117
00:47:19,830 --> 00:47:15,940
of motions and relative positions of the

1118
00:47:22,310 --> 00:47:19,840
planets Sun and Moon interpreted in

1119
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:22,320
terms of human characteristics and

1120
00:47:28,980 --> 00:47:27,040
activities in other words astrologists

1121
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:28,990
believe there's some sort of

1122
00:47:35,820 --> 00:47:31,570
relationship between where the planets

1123
00:47:40,890 --> 00:47:35,830
Sun and Moon are and human personalities

1124
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:40,900
and behavior astrologers claim that

1125
00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:44,170
specific geometric angles and points of

1126
00:47:49,620 --> 00:47:46,390
mutual contact formed by the planets as

1127
00:47:53,100 --> 00:47:49,630
they orbit the Sun present continually

1128
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:53,110
changing patterns which correspond to

1129
00:47:59,910 --> 00:47:55,570
unique patterns of potential behavior in

1130
00:48:03,720 --> 00:47:59,920
human beings some astrologers believe

1131
00:48:07,110 --> 00:48:03,730
that this correlation is not causal but

1132
00:48:10,130 --> 00:48:07,120
coincidental and others believe the

1133
00:48:12,690 --> 00:48:10,140
opposite it all depends on who you ask

1134
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:12,700
whether you happen to be a paying client

1135
00:48:20,370 --> 00:48:17,650
or not astrology is based on a

1136
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:20,380
geocentric universe that is with the

1137
00:48:25,980 --> 00:48:24,010
earth in the middle now since the 16th

1138
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:25,990
century most of us have come to accept

1139
00:48:31,860 --> 00:48:28,240
the idea that the earth in fact orbits

1140
00:48:34,350 --> 00:48:31,870
the Sun not the other way around until

1141
00:48:39,060 --> 00:48:34,360
this was discovered astrology and

1142
00:48:41,310 --> 00:48:39,070
astronomy were inseparable sometimes I

1143
00:48:42,420 --> 00:48:41,320
think many people still don't know the

1144
00:48:44,579 --> 00:48:42,430
difference

1145
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:44,589
next time you walk into a large news

1146
00:48:50,730 --> 00:48:47,770
agency see whether the scientific

1147
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:50,740
astronomy magazines are alongside the

1148
00:48:58,020 --> 00:48:56,050
mystical astrological ones the success

1149
00:49:00,420 --> 00:48:58,030
of astrological character analysis

1150
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:00,430
claimed by believers is universal

1151
00:49:08,910 --> 00:49:04,720
validation you hear them say I don't

1152
00:49:12,450 --> 00:49:08,920
know how it works it just works the

1153
00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:12,460
terms used by astrologers a vague and of

1154
00:49:20,910 --> 00:49:15,609
a general nature so as to fit anyone who

1155
00:49:25,309 --> 00:49:20,920
wishes them to do so if your

1156
00:49:28,319 --> 00:49:25,319
astrological chart forecasts sickness

1157
00:49:32,099 --> 00:49:28,329
perhaps you could enlist the help of

1158
00:49:35,549 --> 00:49:32,109
crystal power like the sale of most New

1159
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:35,559
Age paraphernalia crystals are big

1160
00:49:43,890 --> 00:49:39,130
business many people believe that quartz

1161
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:43,900
crystals possess special powers quartz

1162
00:49:51,319 --> 00:49:46,210
crystals are the latest trend in the

1163
00:49:54,359 --> 00:49:51,329
fashionable new-age world new ages claim

1164
00:49:58,260 --> 00:49:54,369
that quartz crystals have the ability to

1165
00:50:03,289 --> 00:49:58,270
heal for example clear quartz is

1166
00:50:06,180 --> 00:50:03,299
supposedly the overall body energizer

1167
00:50:08,130 --> 00:50:06,190
smoky quartz is very good for grounding

1168
00:50:12,450 --> 00:50:08,140
you into your body whatever the hell

1169
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:12,460
that means i don't own green quartz

1170
00:50:19,410 --> 00:50:16,690
interacts with the endocrine glands pink

1171
00:50:23,940 --> 00:50:19,420
rose quartz and citron quartz work on

1172
00:50:26,940 --> 00:50:23,950
the emotional body it's claimed that

1173
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:26,950
crystals interact with a series of

1174
00:50:34,530 --> 00:50:30,130
energy systems connecting the mind the

1175
00:50:37,710 --> 00:50:34,540
emotions and the body the energy

1176
00:50:43,710 --> 00:50:37,720
supposedly flows into the left hand and

1177
00:50:48,180 --> 00:50:43,720
out of the right so to cure a pain

1178
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:48,190
you hold your crystal in your left hand

1179
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:51,530
and place your right hand on the painful

1180
00:51:05,460 --> 00:51:01,870
the energy flowing in your left hand is

1181
00:51:13,380 --> 00:51:05,470
focused and amplified by the crystal

1182
00:51:22,260 --> 00:51:16,470
ha

1183
00:51:25,980 --> 00:51:22,270
blocks the flow of energy to the body

1184
00:51:28,980 --> 00:51:25,990
cells the organs begin to die and you

1185
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:28,990
become sick and when energy is brought

1186
00:51:34,890 --> 00:51:32,010
back to the area new cells will form

1187
00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:34,900
rebuild the organs and you will become

1188
00:51:43,980 --> 00:51:39,730
well now this method doesn't work for

1189
00:51:48,900 --> 00:51:43,990
headaches Barry because the problem with

1190
00:51:52,830 --> 00:51:48,910
headaches is that is there's too much

1191
00:51:56,820 --> 00:51:52,840
energy in your head or in Tim's head not

1192
00:52:00,330 --> 00:51:56,830
not the according to the crystal

1193
00:52:03,570 --> 00:52:00,340
believers there's energy flowing in and

1194
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:03,580
out of your head all the time and if

1195
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:07,450
there's something usually emotional the

1196
00:52:16,070 --> 00:52:11,170
cut yeah usually emotional blogging that

1197
00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:16,080
exit then the pressure builds up and

1198
00:52:24,030 --> 00:52:18,640
this causes the cells to signal the

1199
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:24,040
brain with pain so this time you place a

1200
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:27,490
crystal in your right hand remember the

1201
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:36,720
place your left hand on your head in the

1202
00:52:45,330 --> 00:52:40,450
right hand holding the crystal solar

1203
00:52:48,930 --> 00:52:45,340
plexus and then using the drawing

1204
00:52:52,250 --> 00:52:48,940
ability of the left hand you suck the

1205
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:52,260
energy out of your headache and

1206
00:52:58,349 --> 00:52:56,530
magically and mystically it comes out of

1207
00:53:00,900 --> 00:52:58,359
my right hand and is focused by the

1208
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:00,910
crystal into the solar plexus where the

1209
00:53:07,830 --> 00:53:02,770
energy can be redistributed throughout

1210
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:07,840
the body end of headache wireless if you

1211
00:53:12,049 --> 00:53:09,570
believe that you'll buy my watch

1212
00:53:15,170 --> 00:53:12,059
actually

1213
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:15,180
the only property that a crystal has

1214
00:53:22,329 --> 00:53:18,089
that is of any use to civilization is

1215
00:53:26,660 --> 00:53:22,339
the piezoelectric effect which is a bid

1216
00:53:29,329 --> 00:53:26,670
which my dictionary defines as the

1217
00:53:32,179 --> 00:53:29,339
production of electricity or electric

1218
00:53:34,849 --> 00:53:32,189
polarity applied sorry by applying a

1219
00:53:38,059 --> 00:53:34,859
mechanical stress to certain crystals or

1220
00:53:41,150 --> 00:53:38,069
the converse effect in which stress is

1221
00:53:44,410 --> 00:53:41,160
produced in a crystal as a result of an

1222
00:53:47,449 --> 00:53:44,420
applied potential difference or voltage

1223
00:53:49,789 --> 00:53:47,459
perhaps the new ages attribute the

1224
00:53:52,999 --> 00:53:49,799
so-called mystical properties of quartz

1225
00:53:56,299 --> 00:53:53,009
to this effect but other than the

1226
00:53:58,640 --> 00:53:56,309
piezoelectric effect there are no other

1227
00:54:02,630 --> 00:53:58,650
energies known to science that can be

1228
00:54:04,849 --> 00:54:02,640
directly associated with quartz in a

1229
00:54:06,469 --> 00:54:04,859
talk later on this morning dr. David

1230
00:54:08,929 --> 00:54:06,479
wheeler a physicist who has studied

1231
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:08,939
quartz crystals will explore this topic

1232
00:54:16,189 --> 00:54:13,650
further any experiments carried out

1233
00:54:17,989 --> 00:54:16,199
under controlled conditions have shown

1234
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:17,999
the healing powers attributed to

1235
00:54:31,370 --> 00:54:27,400
another of the latest New Age feds is

1236
00:54:33,739 --> 00:54:31,380
spiritualism or channeling now I'll only

1237
00:54:35,870 --> 00:54:33,749
touch on this subject briefly as it will

1238
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:35,880
be dealt with in some detail by a

1239
00:54:43,329 --> 00:54:38,249
subsequent speaker the Australian

1240
00:54:50,380 --> 00:54:46,549
spiritualism or channeling is the belief

1241
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:50,390
that the disembodied spirits of the Dead

1242
00:54:55,819 --> 00:54:53,609
surviving in another world can

1243
00:54:59,630 --> 00:54:55,829
communicate with the living in this

1244
00:55:04,189 --> 00:54:59,640
world especially through mediums or as

1245
00:55:07,249 --> 00:55:04,199
they're also now known channels the

1246
00:55:12,079 --> 00:55:07,259
mediums or channels supposedly go into a

1247
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:12,089
trance speak in an altered voice what

1248
00:55:17,449 --> 00:55:14,729
they say varies from world-shattering

1249
00:55:20,269 --> 00:55:17,459
predictions too simplistic philosophies

1250
00:55:22,969 --> 00:55:20,279
which are made to sound profound by the

1251
00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:22,979
use of jargon a claim that the

1252
00:55:28,730 --> 00:55:24,480
revelations come from the spear

1253
00:55:31,660 --> 00:55:28,740
world or super intelligences despite the

1254
00:55:34,190 --> 00:55:31,670
fact that if there is any information

1255
00:55:37,490 --> 00:55:34,200
it's either always available from a

1256
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:37,500
variety of earthly sources or the

1257
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:39,450
revelations are purely subjective or

1258
00:55:49,150 --> 00:55:42,960
religion like let me give you an example

1259
00:55:55,490 --> 00:55:52,310
the earth is in the throes of great

1260
00:55:58,970 --> 00:55:55,500
change the power will be more some than

1261
00:56:02,300 --> 00:55:58,980
we have ever known where there is dense

1262
00:56:06,020 --> 00:56:02,310
population nature will become very

1263
00:56:09,140 --> 00:56:06,030
active there will be a radical increase

1264
00:56:12,530 --> 00:56:09,150
in activity strong and wondrous things

1265
00:56:16,990 --> 00:56:12,540
will awaken us there will be a warming

1266
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:17,000
up of the whole earth crops will fail

1267
00:56:24,349 --> 00:56:21,200
deserts will be inundated with rainfall

1268
00:56:29,510 --> 00:56:24,359
in the next four years everything will

1269
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:29,520
happen much quicker there'll be this is

1270
00:56:34,700 --> 00:56:31,170
good there will be a melting of the ice

1271
00:56:38,450 --> 00:56:34,710
caps in the next four years the scene

1272
00:56:41,630 --> 00:56:38,460
will rise 200 feet in four years crops

1273
00:56:46,390 --> 00:56:41,640
on an international scale will fail it

1274
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:46,400
will be perilous indeed blah blah blah

1275
00:56:54,980 --> 00:56:51,810
now to hear these pearls of wisdom from

1276
00:56:58,990 --> 00:56:54,990
jay-z nidal from Rampur if you like you

1277
00:57:02,359 --> 00:56:59,000
would have had to fork out 395 dollars

1278
00:57:06,290 --> 00:57:02,369
registration fee for a recent rampur

1279
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:06,300
visit to Sydney for the same amount of

1280
00:57:10,970 --> 00:57:08,130
money you could get the facts in the

1281
00:57:14,599 --> 00:57:10,980
truth by subscribing to the skeptic for

1282
00:57:15,740 --> 00:57:14,609
over a quarter of a century you can read

1283
00:57:17,930 --> 00:57:15,750
more about ran through in the latest

1284
00:57:24,270 --> 00:57:17,940
issue of the skeptic it's on sale of the

1285
00:57:35,380 --> 00:57:30,160
okay pyramid power pyramids aren't all

1286
00:57:37,930 --> 00:57:35,390
that fashionable now but it's claimed

1287
00:57:41,350 --> 00:57:37,940
that pyramid our energy or pyramid power

1288
00:57:45,940 --> 00:57:41,360
can charge water sharpen your razor

1289
00:57:50,770 --> 00:57:45,950
blades and stimulate plant growth we

1290
00:57:53,260 --> 00:57:50,780
just quote from Carl Sagan pyramid ology

1291
00:57:56,470 --> 00:57:53,270
is the contention that we and our razor

1292
00:57:59,020 --> 00:57:56,480
blades feel better and last longer

1293
00:58:03,910 --> 00:57:59,030
inside pyramids than we and they do

1294
00:58:06,220 --> 00:58:03,920
inside cubes the contentions of pyramid

1295
00:58:09,490 --> 00:58:06,230
og under appropriately controlled

1296
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:09,500
conditions have never been verified the

1297
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:14,210
burden of proof has not been met like

1298
00:58:20,860 --> 00:58:16,970
crystal power and the claims of all New

1299
00:58:25,420 --> 00:58:20,870
Age belief systems pyramid power is yet

1300
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:25,430
to be proven in fact I've heard from a

1301
00:58:33,700 --> 00:58:29,290
very reliable source that pyramid power

1302
00:58:37,780 --> 00:58:33,710
was invented by Martin Gardner under a

1303
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:37,790
pseudonym in the 60s as a hoax and has

1304
00:58:49,420 --> 00:58:41,690
since gotten way out of hand reliable

1305
00:58:51,609 --> 00:58:49,430
source on the inside cover

1306
00:58:55,089 --> 00:58:51,619
of a New Age magazine and I have just

1307
00:59:03,280 --> 00:58:55,099
over here I discovered a flat pyramid

1308
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:03,290
grid this is a grid it's hard to see I

1309
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:08,240
know but it's for pyramids for flat

1310
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:10,130
pyramids down here and five across the

1311
00:59:16,510 --> 00:59:13,490
top making a block of 20 and it says

1312
00:59:19,839 --> 00:59:16,520
here here is another little Marvel from

1313
00:59:22,690 --> 00:59:19,849
borderland science in California it's a

1314
00:59:25,530 --> 00:59:22,700
flat pyramid grid the history of this

1315
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:25,540
strange diagram is shrouded in mystery

1316
00:59:35,109 --> 00:59:30,290
I'll bet it's not known exactly when or

1317
00:59:38,230 --> 00:59:35,119
who first discovered that use Great

1318
00:59:41,530 --> 00:59:38,240
Pyramid ratios in this concentric

1319
00:59:46,839 --> 00:59:41,540
squares diagram focus the same natural

1320
00:59:48,609 --> 00:59:46,849
energy as a pyramid ie none the grid can

1321
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:48,619
be used like any other pyramid to charge

1322
00:59:54,099 --> 00:59:51,290
water stimulate plants sharp and razor

1323
00:59:59,530 --> 00:59:54,109
blades and all the uses of pyramid

1324
01:00:02,230 --> 00:59:59,540
energy there's a claim here that some of

1325
01:00:05,289 --> 01:00:02,240
the crew on a magazine have shaved with

1326
01:00:10,420 --> 01:00:05,299
the same razor blade for six weeks I've

1327
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:10,430
got an electric razor too okay in

1328
01:00:16,900 --> 01:00:12,890
conclusion I've touched on a few

1329
01:00:19,660 --> 01:00:16,910
specific areas of the new age as I said

1330
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:19,670
in the beginning it's very hard to

1331
01:00:26,109 --> 01:00:23,410
answer the question what is the new age

1332
01:00:30,250 --> 01:00:26,119
maybe at some time in the future there

1333
01:00:34,539 --> 01:00:30,260
will be a new new age perhaps its motto

1334
01:00:38,829 --> 01:00:34,549
will be if a man wishes to educate

1335
01:00:58,549 --> 01:00:38,839
himself he must first doubt foreign

1336
01:01:03,719 --> 01:01:01,620
this is desiree shell hosted skeptically

1337
01:01:06,209 --> 01:01:03,729
speaking check out our website at

1338
01:01:10,109 --> 01:01:06,219
skeptically speaking calm and listen to

1339
01:01:13,859 --> 01:01:10,119
us live on CJ sr 88.5 FM in Edmonton

1340
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:13,869
Alberta Canada I now return you to the

1341
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:28,730
melbourne cup day amanda it's all

1342
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:30,570
happening here we're at our favorite

1343
01:01:33,710 --> 01:01:31,890
club down the street where we normally

1344
01:01:36,350 --> 01:01:33,720
do the the think tank from and it's

1345
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:36,360
absolutely jam-packed today with people

1346
01:01:42,500 --> 01:01:39,450
here to bet on a horse race you say you

1347
01:01:44,900 --> 01:01:42,510
say it like it's something weird it is a

1348
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:44,910
bit strange now I've put a couple of

1349
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:46,650
dollars on the two favorites probably a

1350
01:01:50,690 --> 01:01:48,090
silly thing to do who have you gone for

1351
01:01:53,900 --> 01:01:50,700
I have put a neat way on Ella's wonder

1352
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:53,910
after my first choice was scratched oh

1353
01:01:59,300 --> 01:01:56,850
yeah all right well this is an

1354
01:02:01,010 --> 01:01:59,310
interesting situation because people

1355
01:02:04,670 --> 01:02:01,020
have normally done bet on horses and

1356
01:02:08,570 --> 01:02:04,680
things like myself and me and you do so

1357
01:02:10,850 --> 01:02:08,580
on a Melbourne company that's just

1358
01:02:13,700 --> 01:02:10,860
tradition I guess yeah well i always bet

1359
01:02:16,070 --> 01:02:13,710
based on the name basically and in you

1360
01:02:19,220 --> 01:02:16,080
know whatever ten years of bed in most

1361
01:02:21,470 --> 01:02:19,230
years I've come out very far ahead which

1362
01:02:25,310 --> 01:02:21,480
is that strategy really because you only

1363
01:02:28,430 --> 01:02:25,320
need you know one or two bits that come

1364
01:02:31,340 --> 01:02:28,440
off to put you ahead over a few years so

1365
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:31,350
that's my foolproof strategy it's a much

1366
01:02:33,780 --> 01:02:32,970
better strategy I think then using

1367
01:02:37,410 --> 01:02:33,790
remote viewing

1368
01:02:38,850 --> 01:02:37,420
yes as we saw last night Simon Turnbull

1369
01:02:41,940 --> 01:02:38,860
the president of the Australian psychic

1370
01:02:43,710 --> 01:02:41,950
psyche of the year 24 2004 was on the TV

1371
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:43,720
the other night at the racetrack using

1372
01:02:46,740 --> 01:02:45,250
remote viewing to pick the winners in

1373
01:02:48,540 --> 01:02:46,750
what do you lose 500 thousand two

1374
01:02:52,110 --> 01:02:48,550
hundred and fifty are too close yeah

1375
01:02:54,870 --> 01:02:52,120
once again you know there are there too

1376
01:02:57,780 --> 01:02:54,880
serious about their craft to take

1377
01:03:01,890 --> 01:02:57,790
Randy's million dollars yeah offer them

1378
01:03:03,900 --> 01:03:01,900
some gimmick TV show and they'll add it

1379
01:03:06,450 --> 01:03:03,910
like a shot cause he had an excuse me

1380
01:03:08,420 --> 01:03:06,460
that he didn't concentrate a novel I who

1381
01:03:11,610 --> 01:03:08,430
knows right but and in the end of day

1382
01:03:14,460 --> 01:03:11,620
the professional handicapper the

1383
01:03:16,980 --> 01:03:14,470
professional vector didn't actually come

1384
01:03:18,900 --> 01:03:16,990
out much better I'd the one who did he

1385
01:03:20,940 --> 01:03:18,910
came up streets and was like you just

1386
01:03:25,410 --> 01:03:20,950
meeting old names I don't think she's

1387
01:03:26,970 --> 01:03:25,420
very likely actually not oh well we've

1388
01:03:27,900 --> 01:03:26,980
got half an hour until race time so

1389
01:03:33,590 --> 01:03:27,910
we'll have a couple of glasses of

1390
01:03:38,460 --> 01:03:36,540
horses up getting into the barriers now

1391
01:03:40,890 --> 01:03:38,470
what's the big race two people are

1392
01:03:41,850 --> 01:03:40,900
gathered around up many monitors acum

1393
01:03:44,610 --> 01:03:41,860
the people who are in the next room

1394
01:03:46,470 --> 01:03:44,620
playing poker machines

1395
01:03:48,780 --> 01:03:46,480
I didn't think they'd care yeah we're

1396
01:03:51,030 --> 01:03:48,790
both losing our money but I've months in

1397
01:03:53,460 --> 01:03:51,040
a more interesting way I bet on the

1398
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:53,470
favorites that's why I mean me and the

1399
01:03:59,880 --> 01:03:56,850
people in the pokey all the focus yes

1400
01:04:02,640 --> 01:03:59,890
horses are being led in now can't be too

1401
01:04:04,860 --> 01:04:02,650
long it was very exciting I can't

1402
01:04:08,820 --> 01:04:04,870
believe how exciting is it there are

1403
01:04:13,809 --> 01:04:08,830
balloons and little cutout horses and

1404
01:04:18,309 --> 01:04:15,880
lost horses being led into the barrier

1405
01:04:18,319 --> 01:04:22,499
the jockeys a little on each other off

1406
01:04:29,140 --> 01:04:26,650
crowd the anticipations growing balloons

1407
01:04:54,089 --> 01:04:29,150
are flying we get an aerial view of the

1408
01:04:54,099 --> 01:04:57,920
shocking shocking

1409
01:05:05,870 --> 01:05:02,780
when my horses came nowhere anything

1410
01:05:16,380 --> 01:05:10,690
the message is clear that long

1411
01:05:16,390 --> 01:05:29,600
$20

1412
01:05:34,290 --> 01:05:32,250
thank you very much for listening to the

1413
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:34,300
skeptic zone and continuing to listen to

1414
01:05:38,580 --> 01:05:36,370
the skeptic zone and thank you to those

1415
01:05:41,910 --> 01:05:38,590
people who are now subscribing to the

1416
01:05:44,550 --> 01:05:41,920
skeptic zone every little bit helps well

1417
01:05:46,860 --> 01:05:44,560
wish me luck everybody tomorrow Saturday

1418
01:05:48,900 --> 01:05:46,870
in Sydney I'm going to visit the

1419
01:05:50,910 --> 01:05:48,910
mind-body wallet festival down at

1420
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:50,920
darling harbour will I lose my temper

1421
01:05:56,070 --> 01:05:52,810
will I tell people what to do with

1422
01:05:58,710 --> 01:05:56,080
themselves will I be polite stand by

1423
01:06:01,170 --> 01:05:58,720
next week for the report on mind-body

1424
01:06:03,180 --> 01:06:01,180
wallet until then this is Richard

1425
01:06:08,460 --> 01:06:03,190
Saunders signing off from Sydney

1426
01:06:12,150 --> 01:06:08,470
Australia you've been listening to the

1427
01:06:15,990 --> 01:06:12,160
skeptic zone visit our website at www

1428
01:06:19,450 --> 01:06:16,000
skeptics on TV the comments contacts and

1429
01:06:22,410 --> 01:06:19,460
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